Curse

JDRyder · Dec 08, 2010, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If there isn't an ER healer present, then that means the party is already suboptimal. This entire thread is based around the assumption that you're trying to be as optimal as possible.

Who cares if they're suboptimal? A group doesn't need to run the most "uber" builds in 99% of the games areas anyway to pass with ease, and I don't know why you would because those "uber" builds usually aren't that fun to use. Sure I play to win the encounter like everyone else, but if I don't have fun doing it I may as well stop healing people and wipe.

Anyway, I ran the same build I posted earlier today in a 8 person area and a 4 person area. I liked the build a lot in the 4 person area, I think in a 8 person area however you need a 2nd WoH monk or something more beefy along with the Healing burst monk. I tried running 2 healing burst monks and it was a complete fail, however just one of them- did well enough in 4 person areas. I liked it so much it will most likely be my go to 4 person group build for awhile.

Heres the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta-WZ3q6Ti8

ElnoreVarda · Dec 09, 2010, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Reaper: if you dont use a bot, shadow form and speed clear tactics, your party is suboptimal. Just so you know.

LifeInfusion · Dec 09, 2010, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Usually with pugs the only place you see ERs over monks are UWSCs.

AndroBubbles · Dec 09, 2010, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Well yes, except that's not what's really important. Looking at the total amount healed for party healing skills is misleading and you can't outright compare them to single target heals since they fulfill different functions.

I'd disagree. I think that an extremely energy/time efficient party maintenance skill is important to consider. That said, you really just reiterated what I already said about each elite having its own use, considering I already mentioned having decent prots present when using Healing Burst. I don't know how much I have to put in each post for somebody to realize that I understand the difference between spot heals and party maintenance heals.

Xenomortis · Dec 09, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndroBubbles

reiterated what I already said about each elite having its own use

Fine, but my real claim is the role that Word of Healing fills is more valuable than the role Healing Burst fills.

JDRyder · Dec 09, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Fine, but my real claim is the role that Word of Healing fills is more valuable than the role Healing Burst fills.

Well I somewhat disagree, I think when using Burst you'll generally need to have a more beefy elite with it, however I think in a dual monk team Burst actually works very well with WoH as a team monk setup

Generally dual WoH monks will just be wasting energy fighting each other by over casting WoH on the same target. While this may happen with Burst as well, its not that big of a deal when it does because burst isn't as big of a heal so theres less over healing and you get party healing from it no matter what.

My go to monk setup was a WoH monk with a LoD monk however I've now traded the LoD monk for the Burst monk because the skill has more utility in a fight. If needed you can use it as a party heal or a direct heal and though it may not be as big of a heal as WoH or have as much party healing as LoD does, I find its better on the 2nd monk than either of those skills

FoxBat · Dec 09, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

or have as much party healing as LoD does

Thing is it burst almost does have the same party healing as LoD when you factor in the skill recharges.... about 10hp/sec before 40/40s.... but burst with the direct heal on top.

ZephyLynx · Dec 10, 2010, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Healing Burst is not really about the raw effectiveness of the skills, but rather the flexibility in the bar/time compression. I don't think it will ever replace Word of Healing for me in a balanced hybrid bar, but HBurst + Aegis + Protective Spirit is hybrid enough if the other monk also has a few prots or there is more damage mitigation in the mid-line (Enfeebling Blood, Save Yourselves!, etc...).

Having used this skill more (mostly in pugs for ZM or ZB), I find that this skill gives flexibility in its use as it can be used for spot healing and party healing at the SAME time. You get a small party heal and a spot heal for one skill, and a cast time of 3/4 seconds. This allows you to use other skills more. I'm not saying that HBurst is the new WoH, but it allows for different play styles and gives a new angle to monks. I find this refreshing.

FoxBat · Dec 10, 2010, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Well with the latest update, there's practically no reason to run WoH now. Or LoD for that matter.

I would start to consider this a replacement for xinrae n/rt heroes. You heal as much as spirit light except the whole party gets half a PwK at the same time, on 4r. Toss in a little inspiration and go.

LifeInfusion · Dec 10, 2010, 03:14 AM // 03:14

140 heal vs 94 (203 when <50%) @ 14, so the 50HP from WoH has contend with the Healing Burst pressure heal. Regardless, the jury's still out.

EDIT: it's better than WoH in pressure and with prots. It's like Spirit Light/Heal Other with Breath of the Great Dwarf. The problem is 140 isn't a "power heal", it's less than 10 heal gift of health on a UA bar.

I tested with Healing Burst , D-Kiss (patient got nerfed), Cure hex, Prot Spirit, Shield of Absorption, Seed of Life, Mend ailment, Res chant

I had 12+1+1 DF, 11+1 Heal, 6+1 Prot. I think DF could be lowered to 11 and Heal jacked to 12+1 but it doesn't make that much of a difference (Burst gains about 20 HP with 14 heal). Burst deals with stuff like disease, burning, degen hexes and whatnot well. It doesn't deal with a 150-300 damage energy surge.

You end up riding the prot spirit. Other monk ran OwAT043AZihYj4upBc6biIHkUEA (UA without DH/HD or prots).

When the other monk went afk for coffee I was able to cover. The problem is unless you have an imba or ST rit then the damage spikes can't get healed fast enough.

2nd time: ran with an imba and a 2nd monk. It was overkill. 2nd monk ran: OwYT043AZajoB8jY6jhAZIH8uBA (13 DF inferred from seed).

Also ran it in Temple of Intolerable to help random ranger. In this case I ran 12+1+1=14 Healing, 11+1=12DF and 6+1=7 Prot. It didn't seem much different than the 14DF,12 Healing version since I avoid using D-kiss without hexes and enchants.

On a human monk it is loads cheaper than Divine Healing/ Heaven's Delight since you can use Selfless spirit. That means 2 energy per cast, plus a mediocre spot heal that I'd rather run Smiter's Boon for. Another advantage is that unlike Divine Healing it is not your earshot but the earshot of the target. This makes healing people outside your aggro bubble (melee heavy teams) much more viable.

I wouldn't run it over a N/Rt healer since the energy gets a bit tight when you need to use 2-3 casts of burst to match one cast of divine healing (effective 6.67 energy) but with more mitigation it shouldn't be as bad.

JDRyder · Dec 10, 2010, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZephyLynx

I don't think it will ever replace Word of Healing for me in a balanced hybrid bar

Theres almost nothing that can be done thats balanced that can replace WoH. The skills philosophy, effectiveness and flexibility is just spot on lol. That said its been the Meta for years now and I'm ready for something to take its place

Wenspire · Dec 10, 2010, 05:10 AM // 05:10

The only thing that I see regarding Burst is still the 4 sec recharge vs the 3 seconds on WoH. The new Burst update makes the skill even more tempting to use.

Necromas · Dec 10, 2010, 05:05 PM // 17:05

The extra little buff is certainly making it more appealing.

FengShuiDove · Dec 10, 2010, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

I would start to consider this a replacement for xinrae n/rt heroes. You heal as much as spirit light except the whole party gets half a PwK at the same time, on 4r. Toss in a little inspiration and go.

My thoughts exactly.

In fact... I don't have a lot to add to that. My entire comparison was going to be to PwK, so... there's that.

I'm not much of a PvP'er but I do enjoy watching GvG, and it seems like this might see some action at the flag stand in stand slugfests. But I'm admittedly not learned on the format.

reaper with no name · Dec 11, 2010, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElnoreVarda

Reaper: if you dont use a bot, shadow form and speed clear tactics, your party is suboptimal. Just so you know.

I'm referring to suboptimal in the context of builds. SCs require more skill from the team, and carry a lot more risk if something goes wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Who cares if they're suboptimal? A group doesn't need to run the most "uber" builds in 99% of the games areas anyway to pass with ease, and I don't know why you would because those "uber" builds usually aren't that fun to use. Sure I play to win the encounter like everyone else, but if I don't have fun doing it I may as well stop healing people and wipe.

Anyway, I ran the same build I posted earlier today in a 8 person area and a 4 person area. I liked the build a lot in the 4 person area, I think in a 8 person area however you need a 2nd WoH monk or something more beefy along with the Healing burst monk. I tried running 2 healing burst monks and it was a complete fail, however just one of them- did well enough in 4 person areas. I liked it so much it will most likely be my go to 4 person group build for awhile.

Heres the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta-WZ3q6Ti8

Yes, it is definitely possible to clear the vast majority of the game with less than optimal builds. But, if one is to argue from that standpoint then 90% of the builds in the campfire become pointless.

Besides, both of you are taking that part of my post out of context and ignoring the thread. This thread is asking us the question "If there is an ER healer in the party, and monk is trying to support that ER healer, would a Healing Burst build do that effectively?". Discussing situations outside of that context is outside the scope of this thread.

JDRyder · Dec 11, 2010, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I'm referring to suboptimal in the context of builds. SCs require more skill from the team, and carry a lot more risk if something goes wrong.

Not really, the point of most SC builds is to lower the skill curve and/or lower the risk. If you want to see a team with more skill with higher risk, use a standard team to do UW or DoA, meaning 2 monks, 6 mixed DPSers, or maybe even one healer (monk) and 7 mixed DPSers, which is the way TAM (A older skillful guild) use to do FoW SCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Besides, both of you are taking that part of my post out of context and ignoring the thread. This thread is asking us the question "If there is an ER healer in the party, and monk is trying to support that ER healer, would a Healing Burst build do that effectively?"..

No, the OP said

Quote:

Discussion in the monk forum of late seems to have largely congealed around a rough consensus that (1) to the extent that monks continue to justify their existence in a post-ER-ele, post-ST-rit world, they do so through their party healing abilities, and (2) the biggest flaw with party healing is the way it gobbles up your entire bar in order to get decent effect

Not sure where you got the ER in party thing.

Quote:

Discussion in the monk forum of late seems to have largely congealed around a rough consensus that (1) to the extent that monks continue to justify their existence in a post-ER-ele, post-ST-rit world, they do so through their party healing abilities

This statement means THE OP thinks with ERs and ST rits in the GW world (not party), monks are justified due to their party healing abilities with or without ERs or ST rits.

Or in layman's terms

Q: "Why take a Monk when we could take a ERs or ST rits?"
A: "Because monks party healing is better"

FoxBat · Dec 11, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Yea I'd love to see a team do UW with a balanced makeup and say its easier than with the SC make up. That said a SC make up can be a balanced team if thats whats effective in that area.

It never, ever is. Ball and AoE is ALWAYS better once you figure out how.

As an example, the manly physical FoW build is completely outclassed by keystone signet spiking.

The whole "UA sucks" is predicated on "your team sucks if you don't have enough defense to prevent deaths", and that's not always true. If taking less defense in favor of more offense leads to faster times, with the occasional death that is instantly recovered from thanks to UA, then that is the better skill for that situation/team. Time versus rewards is the only objective arbiter of PvE, nothing else; speed clears and farms are where it is really put to the test.

LifeInfusion · Dec 11, 2010, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Back on topic.

When I was playing with Healing burst I realized the only way it could be much more efficient than UA with DH/HD is with Selfless Spirit. However, you need a high heal spec and a high DF.

I tried:
12+1=13 DF
11+1+1=13 Heal
6+1= 7 prot

1 Healing Burst (140HP)
2 Cure Hex
3 D-Kiss (can't use gift, patient doesn't heal if stripped)
4 Seed of Life
5 Prot Spirit (drop while playing with ER), maybe for Vigorous Spirit/ Healing Seed to boost D-Kiss
6 Shield of Absorption
7 Mend condition or Mend ailment with Imba / Dismiss Condition when with ER / Draw Conditions
8 Selfless Spirit

could drop DF a bit more and run Aegis at 9 prot.

Life Bringing · Dec 11, 2010, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Even with the buff to healing burst, i still see no real reason to take a monk into general pve, unless i was forced to by profession restraints(ie, nightfall missions). Me/Rt, N/rt, and Rt/any all outclass a Monk due to the availability of energy management and a way to actually contribute to the offensive capabilities of the team in a significant way.

Xenomortis · Dec 11, 2010, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

On topic, even with the buff to healing burst, i still see no real reason to take a monk into general pve, unless i was forced to by profession restraints(ie, nightfall missions). Me/Rt, N/rt, and Rt/any all outclass a Monk due to the availability of energy management and a way to actually contribute to the offensive capabilities of the team in a significant way.

This is true of heroes (compression and optimisation are important when H/Hing).
But I wouldn't take a human Nec, Rit or Mes with the intention of healing or protting outside of any SC setup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Back on topic.

When I was playing with Healing burst I realized the only way it could be much more efficient than UA with DH/HD is with Selfless Spirit. However, you need a high heal spec and a high DF.

I tried:
12+1=13 DF
11+1+1=13 Heal
6+1= 7 prot

1 Healing Burst (140HP)
2 Cure Hex
3 D-Kiss (can't use gift, patient doesn't heal if stripped)
4 Seed of Life
5 Prot Spirit (drop while playing with ER), maybe for Vigorous Spirit/ Healing Seed to boost D-Kiss
6 Shield of Absorption
7 Mend condition or Mend ailment with Imba / Dismiss Condition when with ER / Draw Conditions
8 Selfless Spirit

could drop DF a bit more and run Aegis at 9 prot.

If it's the party heal you want, UA trumps this by a long way. The upshot is a slightly stronger single target heal (Burst outdoes Gift) and some compression - you can take extra utility. I have to choose two of hex removal, condition removal and energy management (you can usually run without the latter, it's only a real issue with energy denial).
I'm of the opinion you have way too much bar push in that build - Dismiss/Mend and Cure Hex are fine to take, but DKiss is then overkill.